Bonus Questions:

Gatecrashers: As someone who got into comics by reading classic Spider-Man and loves Pete and MJ, romance is a big draw for me. That being said, Steve and Sharon are the OTP, so they’re not relevant to this question, but Tochi, what made you put Sam and Misty together, and Jackson and Colin, what’s in store for Bucky? We also got the Ventolin mentions, and there’s the incredible Bucky and Natasha knife fight and dance. Will we be seeing Bucky and Natasha more in Thunderbolts?

Jackson Lanzing: (Takes a sip of his drink) Every time I mention Ventolin, somebody on the Internet targets me for death.

Tochi Onyebuchi: I mean, Sam and Misty is inevitable. That’s the ship, like, come on! I don’t know another Marvel couple that is more meant for each other than Sam and Misty. If I could write a Sam and Misty book that would go on for forever, yo sign me the fuck up. 

I think one of the big things about it is that Misty is a grounding force for Sam. She keeps his feet on the ground in many ways, and that’s why so many of the scenes between them, particularly in the first arc, are set in Harlem. There’s scenes set in where they both grew up and you know, you can get dizzy flying in the air for so long, and there’s such value in having somebody who you’re that close to who can remind you of what’s important, who can remind you that you are the man and not necessarily the mission. But also I think Misty in her own right is such a super compelling character. Like, oh my God, Misty solo? And also too, every time that I’m writing an issue with Misty in it, she inevitably gets the best lines, and I’m not feeding her them. It all comes from her. She just creates the best lines for herself. And also, black love is so beautiful. It’s so beautiful. It’s, oh my heart. And so to see it, and I also know what it means to people too. I know what it means particularly to that segment of the audience that just enjoys that so much and how meaningful it is to them. I know what it can mean to people to see that sort of thing, to see that sort of affection and also to see the sort of ‘will they won’t they’ pull between them. So to be able to give that to people is one of my greatest joys and one of my biggest privileges of having written this book.

Collin Kelly: A scene just jumped into my head, obviously didn’t make the cut, but like Sharon goes off to do a thing and Steve walks away, and for just like a moment, it’s Bucky and Misty, just in a room together and I got a feeling those two have no idea what to talk about.

Jackson Lanzing: “Nice metal arm.” Yeah.

Collin Kelly: There are like 45 to 50 seconds before Bucky’s says, “So um, good arm,” and otherwise they have like nothing else to talk about and it’s so fucking awkward. Even then Steve walks in and it’s like “Oooh, I uh- I need you in the kitchen, Buck.”

Jackson Lanzing: It’s really interesting. I was listening to a podcast called X of Words that I really like. It’s a black queer perspective on the current X-Men run that does these deep dives and they did a question that was basically all about black love and Marvel Comics. Honestly just the examples of it are very, there’s just not a lot. There are a few, and they do exist, but they’re few and far between. So I think it’s really vital that it’s shown and then vital that it’s represented and vital that it’s there. So I found it really enlightening and really awesome as somebody who again, isn’t looking for that, right? Then I see it and I’m like “Oh fuck, that’s awesome.” There’s so much storytelling potential there and there’s such a specific cultural vibe that’s going there that opens up the universe and opens up the characters, both of them. I literally want to go to Kennedy’s Fried Chicken just because they like it, man. That’s the only reason. Misty and Sam go there and like, I want to feel love.

Collin Kelly: We’re going to be at New York Comic Con. Let’s make a trip.

Jackson Lanzing: I would really like that.

Tochi Onyebuchi: 125th Street.

Jackson Lanzing: In terms of your Sharon and Steve, obviously it’s as you said, OTP man.

Collin Kelly: The big addition for us that we wanted to do, which is important, is that we wanted to make sure people knew they fuck. (Lanzing laughs) It’s a small thing, but as someone who cares about romance in these comics, obviously sex isn’t everyone’s cup of tea, but so much, especially the MCU, is sexless. People are sexy. Sure, they look great. But these are a bunch of Adonis’ running around, and the fact that they don’t seem to have intercourse is insane. We wanted to key into that element of the fact that Steve and Sharon have a deep enough connection that they can engage each other “deep enough” right, in order to kind of show that at least that’s where their maturity and their relationship has developed and we would like to think that we’ve really cemented that in the minds of the audience. 

Bucky and Nat, I think the cool thing there is, Nat has always seen Bucky for exactly who he is and she has cared about him in every iteration. She is one of the only people who understands his damage, because she shares it. They’re both on parallel paths in terms of finding what it means to be a hero after spending so many years as a villain. She sees him and most importantly is willing to wait for him to get his shit together, which, having someone love you before you can love yourself because they see who you could be is an incredible gift and it leads to what I think is one of the strongest relationships in the Marvel U and yes, for more fucking tune into Thunderbolts, because Bucky is finally getting his shit together. Bucky is finally becoming the man that Nat has always seen him to be and that will come to some kind of fruition.

Jackson Lanzing: Yeah, and I mean, just to speak to Ventolin for a second, because I want people to destroy me on the Internet. A huge key for me to Bucky Barnes in general is the Ales Kot/Marco Rudy Winter Soldier series. I really think that book is one of the greatest pieces of comics pop art of the last 20 years. I just think it’s an absolute freaking masterpiece, and it is curtailed and some of the issues only have like 10 pages and it’s such a mess in some ways, but it is so vital because it is a mess like Bucky’s a mess. It doesn’t know necessarily what it’s about moment to moment. It lurches from being a book that’s very violent to a book that’s very romantic to a book that’s very thoughtful to a book that’s very psychedelic. It’s constantly trying to figure itself out, like Bucky is trying to figure himself out, and yet the thematic core that underlines all of it: “The Lost Glove is happy,” is the phrase that keeps getting said, that Ventolin tells him and and it becomes like a mantra for him that we then call back in Sentinel. It’s that idea that when Bucky is completely removed from his context, when he is no longer on Earth, he is no longer under the sway of the Outer Circle. He’s no longer this way of history. He’s no longer this way of Steve, that when he’s entirely outside his context, Bucky’s a very peaceful, quiet man. (Kelly hums in agreement) That he’s perfectly happy to sit on a mountain and watch the sunset with his alien girlfriend, and that’s all he needs. He can be taught by her. She’s an alien queen and he is a weird mercenary. That he’s actually able to learn from her and sort of be passive in his own life in a way that isn’t passive like in the way that he has been where he doesn’t have the power to actually manage his own life, but he has the power to manage his own life and he has removed ambition from it, right? He’s peaceful, he’s got a real Siddhartha quality, right?

Collin Kelly: Open peace. Like it’s an active choice towards ego oblivion.

Jackson Lanzing: Because he is lost and by being lost, the Lost Glove is happy. We knew that when we were coming in on this book, he was no longer lost. He had a mission that we had established in Devil’s Reign that we knew we were going to be carrying into this book, that was going to become his thing, and that meant he couldn’t be happy, which meant he couldn’t be in a romance. This could never be a romantic book for Bucky, this had to be a book about Bucky embracing all of the stuff that is uncomfortable, like the exact opposite of his experience on Mer-Z-Bow had to happen here and as we got into that, it was very important then to acknowledge Ventolin not because we feel like Ventolin is his one true love or something, but because I’m not sure she is, I’m not sure he can actually be that man. He can’t completely remove himself from his context, which is why he can’t stay at Mer-Z-Bow at the end of that arc. But it taught him something that people are afraid to reckon with, I think, because that book was so weird and because that book was such an outlier, but it’s so important to his arc. To me, it’s the pivotal moment in Bucky’s arc where he goes from being somebody who does not understand his own potential to being aware of his own potential, but haunted by it and then that haunted potential that keeps him from sleeping and starts to run him out, that becomes what we find in Sentinel of Liberty. So I very much hope that people can go back now that they’ve read Sentinel of Liberty if they’re not fans of that arc and maybe they can go back and see Ventolin for what she is, because I think she was a really important moment of growth for him. Like my wife wasn’t my first girlfriend, you know? And like, my first girlfriends were not irrelevant, like the relationships I had before my marriage are not irrelevant. They are important. They teach you things. They shape you, they build you. Those things are important and they should be honored and they should be carried through our lives. For good and for ill, and to me, that’s what Ventolin is for Bucky.

Gatecrashers: In a recent podcast with Gerry Duggan, he talked about how at one point they considered making Steve the father of the Stepford Cuckoos (for people who don’t know, they’re Emma Frost’s clones/daughters). What do you guys think of that and how do you guys think Bucky, Sharon and Sam would react to that information? (Everyone laughs)

Jackson Lanzing: He actually talked about that on X of Words, the podcast I was mentioning earlier.

Collin Kelly: Who’s the Stepford Cuckoos? 

Jackson Lanzing: I think the idea is that the Stepford Cuckoos would have been his too because they’re like clone daughters, right? They weren’t created biologically, they were created by exteriors.

Collin Kelly: They’re not actually Emma’s kids. 

Jackson Lanzing: They’re just Emma’s DNA, and so I think the idea was they were going to use Steve’s DNA as well and that was like how I think that was the play. 

Collin Kelly: It was exterior to both of them. It wasn’t like Steve had some really irresponsible sex with Super Soldier sperm and just made five of them.

Jackson Lanzing: Here’s my thing: I think it literalizes something that I prefer to be subtextual, which is that Steve really likes women who are more powerful than him and that’s a rare thing in superhero comics. Often women are subservient to male heroes. Even female heroes are subservient to male heroes and you end up in this weird, very sexist box where because the character is a love interest, they cannot fly on their own. (He coughs) Sharon Carter and the thing about Sharon Carter is that she showcases the other side of that, which is that if you’re messy and you’re powerful and you call the shots and you’re willing to ask for what you want and say what you want, there’s power there and I think that Steve respects that. I think Steve is sort of thought to be the most powerful person in any room. He enters and I think it’s probably a big romantic turn on for him to have somebody who expresses their own power and doesn’t defer to him. Emma Frost is like the walking embodiment of non-deferral. 

Tochi Onyebuchi: Yeah, she doesn’t give a fuck. (laughs)

Jackson Lanzing: She literally defers to no one. She is the ultimate expression of “I get mine,” and like yes, it’s all behind that guise of “I’m doing it for the children’ and I think that’s true. I don’t think she’s like a villain but I think that she is at her core, a person who has weaponized all of her “I don’t give a fuck,” qualities in service of good intentions, but the intentions didn’t come first. The person came first and the intentions came later. Which is why I think Steve is attracted to her and I think that was sort of established in canon as a result of the Hellfire Gala and then as a result of Sentinel that Steve is attracted to Emma Frost. 

Collin Kelly: He’s got eyes.

Jackson Lanzing: I don’t think that they should ever consummate that. I think it’s actually really important that that relationship always be one where Emma knows that if she tried hard enough, she might be able to corrupt Steve and Steve knows that if she tried hard enough, he might go for it and that and I think as long as they both know that it creates a really interesting power dynamic that allows them to play on some interesting things that has always been Emma’s thing to play, which is utilizing her sexuality in the way that female characters do in these comic books with agency, that female characters normally don’t get in these comics. I think that’s been the conversation with Emma Frost since moment one, when everyone in the Hellfire Gala got to wear full clothing except for the women who all had to wear lingerie, right? The Hellfire Club was from its very first moment all about how Emma Frost weaponizes sexuality and how she manages to create agency out of it. So you know, I think it’s only right that that be like the dynamic between her and Steve. They should not have kids together though. 

Collin Kelly: I’m gonna write the issue for you, right now, okay? Steve finds out that the Stepford Cuckoos are his genetic children with Emma Frost and he’s like “Fuck, what?” And Emma Frost is like, “Ooh, sexy, sexy” toying with him. And then she starts to think about it, because the one thing she doesn’t want for her daughters is a corrupting or manipulated influence. What she wants is the best possible father figure for them, because she does care about those five more than anyone else, right?

Jackson Lanzing: Oh, and their other father figures are potentially only Xavier or Magneto, neither of whom Emma trusts with her children.

Gatecrashers: There’s also Scott.

Collin Kelly: Right. Exactly, or Cyke. We’ve talked about this, we love Scott. Scott’s a bad dad.

Tochi Onyebuchi: Runs in the family, like it’s a Summers curse.

Collin Kelly: But you can see Steve walking up to these girls and being like, “I don’t know you, you are little embodiments of the woman who keeps me twisted around her finger. But I respect powerful women,” and you know, he can deal with Ian with a fight, right? He can get in the throw down and that’s boys being wrestling. He would be the softest dad to girls.

Tochi Onyebuchi: Oh yeah. He’ll be a girl dad. Big girl dad.

Collin Kelly: The ultimate girl dad. If they were younger, he would be the dad that is like, “Oh, am I gonna be the Princess? 100% ladies.” He’ll be like Nick Offerman in Parks and Rec. Like, “Do my little girls wanna have a tea party? 100 percent.” And they would have him wrapped around their finger, and just like Emma, they would fucking know it. I bet they would respect that out of him in the same way that Emma does, right? “I have control over you and because I don’t want to use that on you, that would take something from you, I will respect that enough to respect you.” Like fuck, I’m loving this idea.

Jackson Lanzing: I hate that you’ve sold me on this. I want to write this now. What?

Tochi Onyebuchi: Meanwhile, Sam is side-eyeing the shit out of all of this, being like “Steve Rogers. You and your shenanigans. (Lanzing and Kelly laugh) If you were ever confronted by a situation that was bigger than you, have you ever not been able to get dragged into it? Ever?”

Collin Kelly: Drama just revolves around him.

Jackson Lanzing: He’s a responsibility magnet. Yeah, he loves responsibility. He wants to run The Avengers and help America and be a dad and be as the community center. Steve wants to take on the burdens of everything, because it’s who he is. It’s just inherent. 

Tochi Onyebuchi: Sam’s just shaking his head. He’s like. “Yeah, nah dog. You’re- I don’t know if this is it, chief. Like, you’re on your own.”

Collin Kelly: Steve shows up at Sam’s door with five daughters.

Tochi Onyebuchi: Sam just closes the door.

Collin Kelly: You hear the door lock closed, trap strapped, fucking afterburners fwoosh! Sam’s just fucking gone. “Father did- did your friend just fly away out the back?” “Yes, yes he did.”

Tochi Onyebuchi: Yes, that is exactly how it would go.

Jackson Lanzing: Love it.

Gatecrashers: All right. Well, thank you so much for the past two hours. That was amazing. It was great because I had a list of questions, but just through conversation we covered a lot of that without me having to ask any of that individually.

Jackson Lanzing: Thank you, man. This was a blast. 

Tochi Onyebuchi: Thank you. Thank you.

Jackson Lanzing: What a nice thing for being able to get everybody together and rehash this era of Captain America. What a joy it was to do this with you guys, and yeah, hopefully do it again in the future.

Promotions

Tochi Onyebuchi: My latest novel, Goliath is on sale wherever books are sold. People have told me it’s pretty good. The first two arcs of Symbol of Truth are also officially out in trade paperback. Homeland is the first arc, Pax Mohannda is the second. If trade paperback is your format of choice, I could not recommend a better birthday, Thanksgiving, Christmas, whatever holiday is nearest, type gift for the loved one in your life.

Jackson Lanzing: Our first arcs are now finally out in trade, so Revolution is our first arc, The Invader is our second arc and then all that will come together in Cold War.

Collin Kelly: Pick up all four trades and group them together for the ultimate fan in your life. Don’t be a coward, buy them all. As previously stated, over at Marvel we have Thunderbolts, four issue miniseries coming out soon later this year. We’re going to be picking up with Bucky and Sharon and some of the other characters from Sentinel as they pursue a new and deadly mission of Bucky flexing the power that he has as the Revolution to finally make some sizable change in the world.

Jackson Lanzing: Let’s be really literal about that sizable change, because it’s been part of this conversation the whole time. The one character that we all left off the table during our Captain America run because he’d kind of been run into the ground and because we wanted to run some different modes around the white supremacy angle is the original Nazi himself. The Red Skull is the character we didn’t want to touch until we had something to say about him. Frankly, I don’t have a ton to say about old, terrible Nazis except how much I want them to get shot, so Bucky’s going to go kill the Red Skull. That’s his mission. He’s done waiting for Steve to do it. He’s done waiting for somebody to take this guy off the board. Bucky has learned his place in this universe. He is the person who doesn’t mind wiping evil off the board permanently if it is required and he is going to use that power to basically bring every spy character in the Marvel Universe. So that’s Natasha, Yelena, US Agent, Red Guardian, Shang-Chi – returning back to Shang-Chi’s sort of original characterization as a sort of Bruce Lee in Game of Death knock off character into his new era, and more Destroyer and more coming in to effectively utilize all the resources that he’s gained over the course of Sentinel of Liberty to put a final period at the end of a century of white supremacy. We are going after Nazis hard in every view. It’s going to be a blast. So for anybody who really just wants a fun, incredibly anti-fascist action book, that’s what Thunderbolts is. Can’t wait for people to see what we’re doing.

Collin Kelly: It’s lit. Over at the enemy, over at the Distinguished Competition, friends can find our brand new arc of Batman Beyond: Neo-Gothic, which came out. It is the sequel series to last year’s Batman Beyond: Neo-Year, which takes place after the Animated Series. So if you’ve been looking for the ongoing kick-ass adventures of Terry McGinnis as he finally steps into the role of Batman without Bruce Wayne in his ear, because spoiler alert, Bruce Wayne is dead, then we highly encourage you to check it out. Max Dunbar’s coming in with the art and it is some truly amazing Batman, gothic-y horror, kick-ass business.

Jackson Lanzing: Guardians of the Galaxy is still on shelves. We’re doing eleven issues on that book, and we’re almost done with our arc, so now is a really great time to start catching up. Issue 9 comes out this month. That’s your sad Dark Western book. That’s really all about a lot of that stuff we’ve been talking about today about like trauma and crisis and how it can make you your worst self. That’s what this book is. It’s very much an examination of that. Timeless #1 is also coming, which is a sort of big special that we’re doing this month at Marvel. Normally the purview of Jed McKay and Kang the Conqueror, we are going in a completely different direction and telling a story of the future of the Marvel Universe where only two heroes are left standing: One who runs the world, which is the Immortal Moon Knight with the powers of Iron Man and Khonshu and the Eternals and Doctor Strange and just all these like huge cosmic powers that that character is using under a mask to effectively rule the world in Khonshu’s stead and the last free superhero, the master of the living weapons, wielding the century powers, wielding the Iron Fist and wielding the blood of the Hulk, is Luke Cage as this sort of old Power Man. He’s got a big beard. He’s got a new costume. He’s got an extraordinary amount of powers and he’s the last free superhero against this sort of religious dictatorship that has formed in the future. We can’t wait for people to see what’s up with that and who’s under the mask of the Immortal Moon Knight, because the Immortal Moon Knight is a hell of a character. I can’t wait to see what’s up with that. We’re doing too many comic books, guys.

Collin Kelly: Also in space over at IDW we have our ongoing Star Trek line where we write Star Trek along with Chris Cantwell, who writes Star Trek: Defiant. If you’re a fan of Star Trek, we highly recommend you check it out. Eisner nominated, not so bad. Star Trek’s first ever crossover event, Day of Blood is happening now, which is once again an examination of fascism on the rise, this time, specifically through the lens of the Klingon Empire. So if you’re interested in the anti-fascist screeds or more content about how we feel about dads, join us over there for the ongoing adventures of Benjamin Sisco as he works to save the galaxy.

Jackson Lanzing: And if we have not taken all of your money by now at the comic book shop, I apologize in advance for the last book on this, which is going to be a canonist series again at the Distinguished Competition called Outsiders. We’re not gonna say literally anything about it except that Luke Fox and Kate Kane are teaming up for an entirely new paradigm on the DC Universe. This is not a superhero book. It is a book of pop culture archaeology. Every issue is like a one shot, a deep dive into some weird corner of the DC universe that we have something to say about, and if you’ve been interested in deep thoughts with Hivemind like over the course of this this interview, that’s where all of that’s gonna be living for us in the near future. So feel free to check out Outsiders. So yeah, lots coming down the pipe.

Collin Kelly: One more thing! Outside of comics, we actually just released our very first novel. It’s a middle grade chapter book for the young person in your life called Thor Quest. It is the young adventures of Thor, Fandral, Sif, and Loki on effectively their first adventure as adolescents. Barely even friends yet, barely with any of their powers off on a quest to Nidavellir on the hunt for a magical missing artifact. It’s got incredible art by Billy Young. It’s kind of a mixed media piece if you’ve got kids in your life who are fans of Last Kids on Earth or the Diary of a Wimpy Kid series, like anyone who’s in that sweet spot of moving from younger age books to Lord of the Rings, you will find Thor Quest is exactly for them. It’s on the shelves now. It’s wonderful. Pick it up for the kid in your life or you if you’re just a kid at heart. 

Tochi Onyebuchi: It’s the end, it’s like the ending of the Return of the King.